out goes the girl baby with the holy water…

Out goes the girl baby with the holy water to swim like a parishioner petitioning an intervention from one of the most overestimated and celebrated underachievers – God…

…the central focus of the enthralled – “Nature” being all the proof the ignorant say they will ever need…

I propose a simple easy to understand antithesis to the God speculation.

Rape – that it exist…is proof of the paltry and dried up uselessness of the God concept…just ask any female whose vault of beauty has been unwillingly penetrated by the thrust of a rapist anger “Did you ever have a sense of Gods presence there alone in the splaying room, where you experienced the annihilation of any idea you had ever cherished of your past present, or future?”

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Painting by René Magritte “The Rape”

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14 responses to “out goes the girl baby with the holy water…

  1. and thrice i shall reply… never…

  2. brilliant.

    peace, mister. hoping you’ve been well.

  3. Magritte has never ceased to amaze me. Now there was a painter who painted out of the box!

    I like your tag for this post — Can I nick it for my blog?
    🙂

    I think that God is not Cartesian, and should therefore not be considered through scientific eyes that require experimentation and measurement. There are things that cannot be measured, and God is one of them. No beakers, there.

    On the other hand, God is felt, spiritually and emotionally (not like flame to skin, but like memory to brain, for example). This is called faith, and faith has no place in the lab, as pipettes haven’t got theirs in the church.

    There are believers (example), and there are others who practise their faith in the quiet of their homes and have no photos for me to link to here. Many of the first kind have given the rest of us a bad name.

    And before I forget, I have no idea what God is or the gods are, but I know it isn’t an old, bearded white man. That, too, is something that has given a bad name to those who believe in God, whatever it is, whoever it is.

    And you’re still on my short-list of poets I enjoy reading, as is Jodi.

  4. Hey Poetman, thanks for the comment and suggestion – Much appreciated. I’m new to the blogging world and will take any advice I can get. Good luck on all your endeavors!

    Allie

  5. paisley – I am a thousand times sorry to hear…I think that you did a post recently about a girl who disappeared…maybe I read it somewhere else…I am damn tired of the actuality of rape and torture…and all of its attendant madness…but what particularly saddens me is, the lack of understanding of what it means to be that lonely, alone in the “Splaying Room”

    Thanks for commenting.

    Dame – I am fine and leaning towards cantankerous…Thanks for asking…

    Rethabile – Just to let you know, while I am no believer in God, I am not anti God – to each there own…

    When I think about your own country and those many countries in Africa, and indeed to most of the countries of the so called third world (and I am not letting my own country America off the hook here) my attention is drawn to how the people are dragged one way and then the next – into cubicles, stone rooms and shacks and tortured – brutally – electrodes to gentiles etc.

    And I wonder where the victim’s God is.

    As I suggested to paisley, this sort of experience is my measure of loneliness, my sense of what it must be like to be that truly abandoned.

    If no measure of the power of “Gods” intervention is in evidence, then God is a paltry and dried up concept.

    As for Cartesian or non Cartesian – in a quantum frame “reality” is both, and for the concept of “God” to be of much use, than so must “God” be both Cartesian and non Cartesian.

    Ya got your micro and ya got your macro – in the macro, the grand scheme of things – it is likely not Cartesian, but on the ground, where most of us live, make no mistake it is Cartesian.

    You write:

    “On the other hand, God is felt, spiritually and emotionally (not like flame to skin, but like memory to brain, for example). This is called faith, and faith has no place in the lab, as pipettes haven’t got theirs in the church.”

    And I ask because you have touched on one of my favorite concepts, that of memory:

    Where is the memory of “God” in the “Splaying Room?”

  6. Where is the memory of “God” in the “Splaying Room?”

    It is absent. I agree with most of what you put forth, all down the line. But not everybody has God. Believing in God is personal, and remember, God didn’t make us in his/her image, as many Christians say. We made him/her in our own, sorry image. I repeat that it’s not about a white old man with a hanging, Whitman beard. That’s bull. God can therefore not be there in the Splaying Room if he/she isn’t in the people in that room.

    And I wonder where the victim’s God is.

    So do I. But especially, where is the executioner’s God?

  7. Rethabile – Well said, and between your two comments I think I understand, at least to a certain extent, what you’re getting at.

    Because for you “God” is not “a white old man with a hanging, Whitman beard.” and you write “On the other hand, God is felt, spiritually and emotionally (not like flame to skin, but like memory to brain, for example). ” I make up that what you are proposing is that “God” is not a gendered humanoid, but is more akin to a sense memory…

    If that’s where you are going, I think that’s brilliant, and certainly one of the more profound definitions of “God” I have read in a long time….Be Well Rethabile…

    Poetman

  8. Mmmm, very interesting thoughts expressed here on all sides. I don’t believe in the whitebeared man, I believe in a force for good which exists beyond our concept of time yet is in us too…..I like very much what Rethabile said…….the painting is wonderful. Hello Poetman *waving*. How’s it?

  9. veritasexnihilo

    I would still be inclined to disagree with your proposition that evil implies anything about the nature of a god in this world. I would agree with your statement if, and only if, human beings knew everything. Since we do not know everything our inability to “feel God’s presence in the splaying room” is merely a biological affect of fear and pain. It is also noteworthy to mention the plethora of women who are raped and turn toward a god rather than away. I would posit that phenomenon as a tough fact for your example to deal with. Perhaps out of the vacuum of all things good felt during the rape a new feeling emerges drawing one closer to a god in this world.

    Also, a god’s inability to act on such a thing, to judge or condemn such a thing would still not disprove his or her (its) existence. The problem of evil is only a ‘problem’ IF a god of some kind exists. The issue only aims at describing god not defining or negating god. Let us not forget that theologians, not atheists, first raised the problem of evil. Perhaps this god thing is more complicated than we imagine… that does not mean a god does not exist.

    That being said, you bring up the best possible example, one that should be outlined more fully to the more fanatical believers in God’s infinite goodness. Your critique, I believe, is much more damaging to a two-dimensional God character rather than a more grounded and philosophic God. What you have said needs to be said for the sake of education. It is a great service you perform, but I would recommend you to not overplay your hand by claiming this example to be the “antithesis to the God speculation”. Let us not forget the trials the Jewish people went through for centuries being raped and murdered to the point of genocide and out of every tragedy they draw the wellspring of their continued faith. All of this from a people who believe they are ‘chosen’ by God. Some faith is deeper than a defense mechanism against pain and pain cannot make that faith break.

    All in all, well written, well defended and another smashing post. As always I appreciate our continued dialogue and I do believe I am better off for having read your many thoughts. Peace.

    -V

  10. veritasexnihilo, Thank you for your response…and your compliment…

    As an exercise I offer you this response…

    But first, I must write that I am deeply sorry if any part of my comments have or will offend anyone.

    I have never been raped, however I was severely and repeatedly abused as a child by both of my parents. I was in my own sort of “Splaying Room” as a child, and in that room, I came to learn of, and to define my own version of loneliness…

    Here is my response…

    I never used the word evil.

    All sense is biological.

    This post is in no way a dialog about rape – of it, as an experience, I know but little.

    I sincerely doubt that there is a “good felt” during a rape…

    For solace a victim might turn to almost anything – drink, drugs, dissociation ect.

    I am not trying to “prove” anything – this post is an antithesis…

    Good or evil are useless concepts to debate – for me, it is more useful to discuss what is desired or what is undesired…what is wanted, or unwanted…

    I do not have a problem with whether there is a “God” or not a “God”

    I am an agnostic not an atheist.

    It is not likely that theologians were the first to raise the subject of “evil” as a problem.

    For me, there are several questions being posed by this post (neither of which can be answered with certainty):

    1. How is it that the power of “God’s” intersession seems to be absent in the “Splaying Room?”
    2. When one is suffering a supreme level of abuse – is the loneliness that I suspect being experience there, an indication that anything that has the power to stop abuse – that does not stop the abuse – a paltry and useless entity?

    Here is how I am grounded – when looking for a tool, or when trying to learn something new, I ask – “Is this tool, or this thing I am trying to learn, useful or useless?”

    If I determined the tool or learning to be useless, I have only proven, that to me, it is useless – not that the tool or the learning is non existent.

    In the “Splaying Room” I would need, and want something that was useful.

    Here are some other paltry and useless concepts in the “Splaying Room.”

    The:

    Police
    Church
    Government
    Friends
    Family
    Neighbors

    Regards
    Poetman

  11. veritasexnihilo

    Poetman,
    Though I understand your retort I feel you are being coy. An antithesis (by definition of being the contrast to a thesis – which is at least what the word means) must have a point of proving (Despite your desires otherwise). Evil is not said but implied in your post (most certainly) or else why choose a clear social norm (like rape) to exemplify your tale. If you are an agnostic then you must have a problem whether there is or is not a God because you clearly haven’t chosen either, yet you are still open to the option, which means you must put some weight into the ‘problems’ at hand, no? Furthermore, why raise question involving a God or gods when you don’t have any questions (one form of problem) with them? Also, your post clearly takes an assumptive quality which naturally puts readers of a certain philosophy in a defensive position – who says God is absent in the splaying room? Why not question whether God is absent in any room, or on the street, or in a church – why choose such a clearly EVIL example wherein you call to mind our ideas of a God which intervenes? Especially when you have no concrete knowledge of that example. Even if this is unintentional to your point it distracts from your point because as readers we do not share your world view. We do see things like rape as clearly evil and not simply “unwanted” – just ask a rape victim about that ethical reality.
    Your post sets up a clear dichotomy (whether purposeful or subconscious) of a God which acts or else a God which is a “paltry and dried up concept”. (yet another example of language which often leads one to believe you have a problem with God or the idea of God). In other words God must be useful or paltry and dried up – if God can’t stop a rape then there is no sense believing in the concept. My response was pointing to the answer to this quandary which finds its basis in the same reasoning as the problem of evil. God isn’t about usefulness, nor saving human beings from each other, nor having their presence felt at all times. This is the thesis which you inherently oppose in your “antithesis” and hence must be considered the point of proof of your antithesis since it clearly challenges an entire set ideas that find their root in a question first proposed by the theologians. (all of this to explain the extrapolation of your quandary into the problem evil).
    In addition, as part of that dialogue, I wanted to submit a counter thesis to your antithesis in order to synthesize a true dialogue. It seems I have failed. To perform a dialogue one must always internalize the language of others into the nearest form of comprehensible construction. Hence I apologize if I didn’t quiet grasp your question if not one that aims to deconstruct an idea of God by use of examples (in this case evil). Though with your recent comment I am rebuffed, and since I am stubborn, would like to try again. =)
    1.) In regard to the question of God’s intersession. God’s presence or intersession cannot be felt most likely because it would never intercede with the affairs of humans. Such an act of intercession would be completely based on an assumption that this God cares for us in a way that it would remove freedom in order to cease pain. I know of no concept of God that includes the removal of human freedom in order to cease human pain (on this earth). This is true despite the amount of freedom and despite the amount of pain. This might be due to my limited religious studies but I have never heard of an example of a God which does, now might be the time for me to learn. So as far as I can tell… that is the reason why its presence would not be felt.

    2.) On the question of paltry and useless concepts. The answer from my perspective is clearly no, though I have little doubt that other people hold the question to have more grey areas that I do. Concepts are not always meant to be useful. Some concepts are merely true despite their usefulness. This, for me, is the deep seated problem with your understanding of the world. Not everything is a ‘tool’ for you to use. This universe has far more things to worry about than your learning. This, as it turns out, is all Cartesian philosophy that you cling too, (whether you intend too, or not). The idea of things HAVING to be useful in order to be taken into one’s personal philosophy is a paltry and dried up concept which was buried with Descartes. In the framework of utilitarian usefulness of course there are problems with the concepts of God, the universe, justice, ethics and all other things that bring pain to man by nature of their existence. However in the framework of universal usefulness the opposite is most likely true.
    Back to how this becomes reality in the splaying room. The only thing that is useful in the splaying room is escape – exit from the splaying room. Hence, anything that can make us escape is deemed good and anything else is useless. Unfortunately once we are out of the splaying room things like memory and feelings assault us causing deep depression. Again escape becomes the tool of choice (since it was the tool that helped before) and our victim now turns to drink, drugs, and disassociation. It turns out that the tools helpful in the splaying room are not helpful outside and new tools must be developed. Hence any system which discards tools merely because they are ineffective at certain times is not a good one. This would mean discarding the concept of a sledge hammer because it can’t chop down a tree. Thus I find your example to be insufficient in its attempt to define the concept of paltry and useless. It may not be useful in the splaying room, but it might be useful outside it. Hence the concept can clearly said to not be useless but merely having a use outside the splaying room.
    Overall, I think your response said things your post did not and shed light on entirely new questions, but such is the problem with brief entries I suppose. If all you meant to say was “If the concept of God is useless in one specific case (despite its tragedy) in a million, then God is a paltry and useless concept” you should’ve just said that. I still disagree regardless, but at least this way we both got to exercise our minds. I really do think you should further flesh out the ideas presented in your posts – once challenged they are very deep and complex ideas but when originally presented they seem deconstructive and simple (not to mention they usually appear aligned to philosophy you claim to have no part of). Your use of incendiary terms is not nearly as indicative of your person as your more eloquent and flowering descriptions. You really have a talent at dialogue when given the opportunity but you shy away from that intensity in the original post. All in all I would say the post was extremely successful. The wide and varying answers showed great interest in your audience and you ability to answer questions presented was, as usual, very apt.
    With slightly less than two typed pages for you to read, I will now retire. I do hope my rebuffed responses are more useful as tools of dialogue for this post, even if they are still off the mark with your intended point. I would hate to have wasted your time in reading them. Again I thank you for being the impetus of wonder, it has truly brightened my day being able to digest and confront such complex ideas – especially when they are entirely different perspectives of the universe compared to my own. You are indeed always enlightening.

    ~V

  12. veritasexnihilo

    Sorry about the poor formatting on the previous comment… wrote it in word and the spacing between the paragraphs is no longer there. Its a miserable eyesore. I can post it again if you delete it… or not if you’d rather.

    All the best

    ~V

  13. 1Poet4Man,

    These are provocative words that have caused me to dig deeper in my faith and for that I thank you. My hope is that I will not offend you with this response and although Almighty God does not need me to defend Him, I feel compelled to comment on this important to topic.

    I suppose I am one of those ‘fanatical believers in God’s infinite goodness’ as veritasexnihilo refers to in his comment above! God IS so good, righteous, Holy and is never to be blamed for unwanted human actions. He does not cause them, humans do.

    One of God’s greatest gifts to mankind is free will. We are free to make willing choices, choices that have real effects on ourselves and others. With free will, there will inevitably be morally wrong (undesirable, unwanted actions) that occur. Pain and suffering are the result. God did not create the “splaying place” as you call it…humans did. Without free will and choice given to us by God, there could not be true love for God. We live in a fallen world – that is, the universe was created inherently good but through man’s rebellion, sin entered the world. God does not violate the aggressive person’s will to strike the innocent. If God controlled our actions or forced a person to stop acting a certain way this would be tantamount to rape itself, would it not?

    The thought of a woman being raped or a child being abused fills us with such grief and despair. It is innately incomprehensible to most human beings. These actions cross a line far beyond “unwanted”. Does an animal feel despair if a human is raped? I doubt it because they are not born with a moral compass. By your description, I believe you recognize these acts as evil and it rightly brings up the question of God in your mind. It sounds as if you personally disdain a God you don’t believe exists.

    None of us should wish for a world where strict and immediate justice takes place for every unwanted act because each of us would be impacted daily. We have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God. If even one of God’s commandments have been broken, they have all been broken. God’s justice demands that sin is punished but His love is shown in that he took the punishment himself through His Son Jesus on the Cross. We all deserve judgment and death and yet Jesus took this upon Himself willingly. What we do not deserve – forgiveness and eternal life –he freely gives. Jesus Christ most certainly understands the splaying room more than anyone and He is there to comfort those who will invite Him to do so.

    As an innocent sufferer yourself, you know what true evil is and it is far more than just ‘unwanted or undesirable’ action. You know from personal experience that evil is real and that is causes harm. It breaks my heart that you were abused as a child and that your pain and suffering caused you to feel abandoned by God. It is hard for me to fathom this kind of evil perpetrated on a child by his own parents. I was an innocent child victim in a different way and I did not know God then. However, I can look back now and see clearly that He WAS there with me as strange as that will sound to you. I am now at a point spiritually where I can say “All things work for good for those who love God.” (Romans 8:28). I pray this blessing for you as well.

    I have a good friend who was raped. She was a born again Christian then and is a born again Christian now. During the rape, she prayed “The Lord’s Prayer” out loud. Can you imagine? I know from her testimony that her ability to focus on a Holy God during one of the most evil of acts allowed her to literally survive the ordeal. She recognized that the evil act was not of God and her faith allowed her to eventually forgive the rapist. This healing has allowed her to move on in life without turning to some other coping mechanism and she is now able to comfort others who have gone through this same suffering. Believe it or not, there are people who turn to God because of the splaying room rather than turn away. It is never too late to turn to God….he is waiting for the humble, the broken hearted, the weak, those that recognize their need for His mercy. He pours at His indescribable love and peace upon those who come to Him in faith.

    As far as the seeing God in nature…well, count me in again. True beauty is a gift from God and can be found everywhere in nature, in music, in poetry, in the eyes of a loved one, and in the mathematical workings of the universe. There is also a kind of goodness that can bring you to tears of joy such as the birth of a child. So much more than just a biological response!!

    God Bless,
    Scotti

    “A man can no more diminish God’s glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, ‘darkness’ on the walls of his cell.” ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

  14. Scottti – To point by point reply to your well intentioned comment would simply take too long.

    I disagree – “God” is not in the “Splaying Room.” Prayers to “God” while in the Splaying Room are useless…cuz they seem to go unanswered…

    I am only interested in what is useful, wanted, and attainable…

    Peace
    Poetman

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